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02 Jul.,2024

Does buying from online bowling stores kill pro shops? ...

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The KingPin

Hello to all,

I am wondering if people buy bowling balls from online bowling stores, does this kill their sales, or is where the money really comes in from drilling?

Coach 3G

I know that most pro shops just charge an arm and a leg for drilling when you don't buy the ball from them. I personally would go to the pro shop owner first and see if you could work out a deal before ordering something online. Often times they will work with you as they are able to make the situation win-win for the both of you.

I also think it's the pro shop owners responsibility to provide the expertise a bowler needs, so that the customer will feel obliged to purchase their equipment from them in the future. I think some pro shop operators like to blame the internet for hurting their business, but the reality often is they aren't great marketers, and that is something they all need to work on.

Stormed1

The problem from the pro shop starts by the fact that a person who buys one ball every 10 years can most times buy the ball for the same price or in some cases cheaper than the pro shop can buying obviosly a loy more balls than a single bowler. People complain about the cost of drilling a ball that is brought in. There is a lot more than just throwing 3 holes in it to do a proper job. From start to finish you will spend an hour or more and that's if you don't have to fit them. You pay for their expertise. A good driller can make huge gains in your game with proper fit and layout.

psaunders300

Yes, online sites have hurt Pro Shop sales. Those that are smart have adapted to this and are still in business.

For me I always buy from my Pro Shop because I know he gives me the best deal he can find and he takes care of many other things either at a discount or sometimes for free because I am such a good and regular customer. I also send many, many people his way and "word of mouth" advertising goes a long way towards helping Pro Shop sales.

The KingPin

I guess that is what I am leaning to, if bowlingboards.com were to work with some online bowling stores is that bad for business? I want pro shops to want to send people here to talk to, not put us down

BowlnBrat

StormGirl712

im not too sure about throwing in a free drilling, but cutting deals as in throwing in grips and half price on a slug happens 9 times out of ten. it really all depends on the proshop you go to. some charge HIGH price if you order offline and bring in a ball such as one of our proshops in Jacksonville. they charge $50 to drill, plus $10 for grips, and $15 for a slug. now for those who dont like math here, thats $75...JUST FOR DRILLING. So in that case it would greatly benefit you to buy from the proshop. i do also know that most of the proshops here just take the price they got the ball for which the owners do get discounts, just add the price of drilling onto it, therefore making it cheaper to buy from there, also throwing in grips, but still charging for a slug. i think the only thing i would probably benefit from buying off a online store would be a bag of thumb slugs and grips.

Stormed1

Keep in mind too that if there is a warranty issue . When buying online you have to ship thee ball back o them and then pay shipping for the replacement. And then pay to have the replacement drilled. Buy from the pro shop and they handle all that for you. If it's a ball bought from us we don't charge to drill the replacement. We even eat the slug and grips

JaxBowlingGuy

BowlnBrat

JaxBowlingGuy

Not all pro shops would go for free drilling, but I have had 2 of my balls drilled free at my pro shop...not b/c of any returns or anything like that. But it was thrown in. Usually they charge just a small fee for drilling b/c they don't tack it onto the price of the ball...but I have talked them into free drilling on 2 occasions. And Dom is really good with cutting all kinds of deals on anything with his repeat customers and those that spend alot in his shop. He's thrown in plugs and grips for free, taken 25% off prices, etc. Dom's excellent when it comes to keeping his customers happy and keeping them returning to his shop. Some of the other shops in Greensboro don't treat their customers that well.

do you get exotic layouts on your balls or just a generic drilling? reason I ask is that I see you throw 10lb. usually the companies dont start putting the actual weight blocks in the ball until 14lb and some 12lb like the tropical for example. you could maybe save some $$ with a generic layout since they will not have to completly map the ball out.

StormGirl712

haha, don't get me wrong, i used to work in the proshop and i get heavily discounted as well. so does robert for a matter of fact, but thats just because hes good at talking people into/out of things. lol

The KingPin

I find that regardless of whether you buy the equipment online or in the pro shop...the price tends to come out close to the same. IE you buy a ball online for 199.99 but the pro shop charges 229.99 for that ball. Well, think about this...by the time you pay the shipping and handling and taxes for the online ball, it roughly comes out to be the same as if you bought that ball at the pro shop. Granted, alot of pro shops cut deals to those that buy in store on drilling, some may even throw in free drilling or reduced drilling. But to me, it just seems they are about the same whether you buy online or in the shop.

Personally, I prefer to buy from my pro shop. Like many of you have stated, they are there for the expertise in assuring you the proper fit, equipment and advice in what will work best for you. I am always running into the pro shop to ask them questions or get advice about something. I have become rather close with the owner, his wife as well as the driller in gaining very insightful advice and tips and majorly improving my game! ANd I would recommend his pro shop to anyone!

And that pro shop is D & J Pro Shop located at Triad Lanes in Greensboro, NC! Dom is the best one to go to for ensuring the proper fit and advice, while Clarence does the best drill work I have ever seen!

So I called Dom today just to chit chat. No names were mentioned or anything, but I did ask if people buy balls online and then bring it to them if it hurts their business compared to buying from them directly?

After we got past the why are you calling and who am I, he started talking.

He said "We are the top dog around here." So being that everyone buys from them, who cares really. But then I asked about BowlingBoards.com, I mentioned that if I were to send a letter to them offering to advertise their specials for free if it would help them? He explained that he has his own website. So I asked if he would just throw my letter in the trash? Again he said they have their own site and there are the best around.

So what did I learn today?

Well if you are to be the top dog, location helps, but I also realize that not everyone starts on the top rung of the ladder.

So what were pro shops like when they first started out?

Did people matter then?

What about manners and respect once you made it?

So then I called pro shops in Colorado. I got the same attitude that who cares they will charge for drilling and that is where the money comes from.

I also had one pro shop guy pretend that he was listening when really he was busy talking.

I am very lost now

Stormed1

do you get exotic layouts on your balls or just a generic drilling? reason I ask is that I see you throw 10lb. usually the companies dont start putting the actual weight blocks in the ball until 14lb and some 12lb like the tropical for example. you could maybe save some $$ with a generic layout since they will not have to completly map the ball out.

Just an FYI Storm/Roto and Brunswick use "real" although sometimes generic (Brunswick) cores down to 12lbs on all their equipment

Cuda

Not sure if it "kills" the pro shops....but it does keep them in check by bringing in competition (economics 101: Law of supply and demand)....Pro shops must be competitive and keep their prices competitive to compete with online stores. I don't have a problem with paying a little more in pro shops for supplies as you are paying for convenience vs. the days of shipping by buying online...but when they charge prices by thinking there is a monopoly in their immediate market...thats when they will notice a decline in sales.

HammerOfJustice

I just recently bought a Venom and I had contemplated buying online vs pro shop. It was actually cheaper for me to buy from the pro shop due to "free drilling", discounted inserts and slugs. Most pro shops will charge quite a bit for drilling on a ball you did not purchase for them to create an incentive to buy the whole package from them.

Plus you get personal service (provided your pro shop employs good people) and advice that an online shop just can't offer.

Stormed1

As far as drilling charges at all the seminars i've attended the ball manufaturers recomend a minimum of $50.00 to drill a ball brought in to them. One shop i help out at has gone to ala carte pricing. So for examplee he sells a VG or VE for 149.95 + drilling, grips etc. slightly higher than the internet but not too bad. He's able to do that because he cut a deal with the center on his rent so his overhead is a little cheaper. The internet is not going away so pro shops beed to adapt to survive.

hondo

I spent a few extra bucks and got the extended warranty plus which covers everything. I have the website copy my specs and they do a great job of drilling. I only do it all online because the closest decent pro shop is 2 hours away and the last time I went the guy went golfing, I had an appointment. I take my bowling seriously and love the game. I don't know about the pro shop online thing but I do like doing the research online and being able to order any hour of the night. What can I say, I'm an Internet junky.

owlish

I purchase balls from my local proshop and accessories online. Seems to even out both parties. I prefer a face rather than a keyboard to do my communication.

Owl

Stormed1

In my case at the 2 shops i drll at we really don't care if the customer buys from us or brings it in. For our pricing we take our cost on the ball and add the drilling charge. The total is what we sell it for. The big difference is that if you buy the ball from us we and there is a problem with it we get the replacement for you and drill it for free. If you bought it online you have to send it back to them and hope they replace it. Once you get the replacement you have to pay to have it drilled.

All that being said it's sad that someone who buys 1 ball every 10 years can many times buy the ball for the same or less than the pro shop who buys hundreds a year. A couple of the manufacturers have put price floors in effect which set a minimum price for the internet to sell which helps the brick and mortar shops.

J Anderson

All that being said it's sad that someone who buys 1 ball every 10 years can many times buy the ball for the same or less than the pro shop who buys hundreds a year. A couple of the manufacturers have put price floors in effect which set a minimum price for the internet to sell which helps the brick and mortar shops.
Could you say which manufacturers? Or is it just really obvious when checking prices? I personally prefer to shop locally, and would like to support manufacturers who don't screw the local merchants.

Stormed1

The Mayor

I think $50 plus tax is a reasonable price for drilling. You're paying for a professional service by someone who knows a trade that not very many people know. When someone buys a ball online I'd say 95% of the time they aren't going to purchase grips/slugs online as well, so shop owners will get the sale on those. Then add the $50 for drilling you're making $60-65 profit from one ball with barely any cost. That's a pretty darn good deal for the shop owner. If the driller knows what they're doing and take the time to really help the customer their business will be fine. It's the shop owners that expect business to be there just because their doors are open that are going to suffer. Sometimes online sales could help the shop. They don't have to take the time to "sell" a ball/product to the customer which saves them time and it's all profit. And they can use that extra time to go out and find more customers. Sounds pretty good to me.

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J Anderson

At the Mission seminar they told us that all the Eonite family (columbia,Hammer,Ebonite and Track) . Plus AMF/Global. Looking on the online sites Storm?Roto are still at wht pro shops pay for them. I'll have to check Brunswick when i go to the shop tomorrw

Thanks for the info. In an odd coincidence, every ball that I own is from the Ebonite family. I started with an Ebonite Signature that my dad bought for me in High School. I then bought a used Track when I went lefty two years ago, a used Hammer Black Widow when I started bowling right-handed again, and finally a Columbia 300 White Dot when I dawned on me that my fingers hurt from throwing the old Ebonite at spare leaves.

Ryan_W

I've bought almost all my equipment thru online retailers and classifieds like Craigslist & Ebay. The pro shop I go to charges me $43 out the door for drilling and finger grips. They do a good job and will make any small adjustments as a courtesy. Online drilling doesn't seem like the best way to go about it and most people probably don't have a ball spinner to properly resurface a ball. My thought is as long as people need there balls drilled and maintained, pro shops can't go out of business.
P.S.- The only thing I won't pay the pro shop to do is oil extraction...I have a perfectly good oven and dishwasher for that.

Darryl

Hi all,

I work in a Pro Shop and I can give you my 2 cents worth with an example.

At Bowlingball.com the Storm Prodigy sells for 126.99 with free shipping. You get what they send you (i.e. pin in, pin out) so depending on the layout you want, you may not be able to drill that particular ball.

Bring it to my shop and you will be charged $50 for drilling, $15 for thumb slug, and $10 for inserts. That brings total cost to $201.99.

Now if you come into the shop and tell me "I can get that ball for $126.99 online, what can you do for me?", I will usually offer a deal like $200-210 out the door, and hope you become a return customer. Plus, I can order the ball with the specifics you want (pin distance, top weight).

It's been my experience that I may have to eat a few dollars here and there but it pays off if customers come back.

Ryan_W

gergy22

I think ultimately it all evens out. If a person is getting a ball for $100 online and taking it in to get it drilled. They will pay $50 to &75 to get it drilled. Nearly all profit for the pro shop, if he bought it from the pro shop he would pay $150 to $175 in that though the proshop has $100 cost so it ends up the same for the most part. I think pro shops that are not part of the center or stand alone pro shops would have a tough time making it right now. My dad owns a proshop inside his bowling center but his shop business is great. He just made the pricing so that ultimately the person is paying the same through him as they would if they bought the ball off ebay or somewhere else online and brought it in to him to get it drilled.

americantrotter

Ultimately it's just another option for the consumer. It all depends on who your Pro Shop is. Mine stocks cyclones, white dots, t zones, and the occasional revolver.

They care about the 8 for 8 leagues and the youth bowlers. They just dont stock what i want. Plus if you make an order the staff screws it up.

All in All it's a frustrating experience. So I drive an hour away and have a friend drill a ball I buy online. Or i buy directly from him because he stocks a ton of different items.

I would always go local if the lanes cared enough to respect my business. Thank God for the internet.

DaveAyotte

I have bought offline and gone that whole route, but as it's been said on here several times it's just about the same - maybe a few dollar swing. If I can support small business owners, I'm going to do it. The guy at my local Pro-Shop is just that - a regional pro. Granted he's out a lot on various tournaments and what-nots, but when you get a ball from him, he gets you a lane - listens to what you want, and watches you throw the ball so he can tailor it to you. You usually end up getting a small lesson out of it in the mean time. Why not?

americantrotter

The Mayor

For the most part, online bowling retail websites are small businesses as well. Bigger than your pro shop, but still not large in the grand scheme. It's not like you're ordering from Amazon. So buying bowling equipment online, you're buying from a small business, just not necessarily in your area. That being said, having a local pro shop that is knowledgeable that you can trust is a wonderful thing. The internet is a great option for those who don't have that.

PinCup

Hello to all,

I am wondering if people buy bowling balls from online bowling stores, does this kill their sales, or is where the money really comes in from drilling?

ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY YES!!!
Most pro-shops will charge you double for a ball not purchased from him.
If he's your in-house guy, it's a real smack in the face. If he's a certified shop, that's even worse. Training required to stay current ain't cheap.

Folks, we really don't make a ton of money in the bowling business. Machine parts are WAY expensive and many of us have 40 year old machinery, lanes care costs are a HUGE part of our annual budget. Overhead and insurance, licences and fees, electricity, ect. And now Meth-heads are stealing our AC units!!
ei; The new top of the line lane machine,... $50,000

This is one more reason we're losing the smallest and largest bowling centers. Only the best, who can do something with nothing, can survive.
Providing a clean comfortable facility with great customer service on a skinny dime, ain't for the weak!
Why do we do it?

Selling smiles is a fun way to make a living. Seeing a customer come in after a bad day, and we turn it around and see smiles and laughter. That feeling can't be beat.

So, ... If you love bowling, and you local center provides a quality product for your entertainment dollar, throw us a bone!!!
-Buy your ball here!
-Show up early for league and EAT OUR FOOD.
-TIP your waitress for hustle. (good one's are so hard to find. Appreciate them.)
-If you see kids or open bowlers tearing up my building or equipment, PLEASE SAY SOMETHING!! Vandalism costs us $s every year.
-Bring family from out-of-town in for fun and laughs. We love to meet them and we'll clean up the mess! Most of us are open major holidays.

We know money is tight, we're doing our best to keep costs down. Please help!

PinCup

The Mayor

ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY YES!!!
Most pro-shops will charge you double for a ball not purchased from him.
If he's your in-house guy, it's a real smack in the face. If he's a certified shop, that's even worse. Training required to stay current ain't cheap.

Folks, we really don't make a ton of money in the bowling business. Machine parts are WAY expensive and many of us have 40 year old machinery, lanes care costs are a HUGE part of our annual budget. Overhead and insurance, licences and fees, electricity, ect. And now Meth-heads are stealing our AC units!!
ei; The new top of the line lane machine,... $50,000

This is one more reason we're losing the smallest and largest bowling centers. Only the best, who can do something with nothing, can survive.
Providing a clean comfortable facility with great customer service on a skinny dime, ain't for the weak!
Why do we do it?

Selling smiles is a fun way to make a living. Seeing a customer come in after a bad day, and we turn it around and see smiles and laughter. That feeling can't be beat.

So, ... If you love bowling, and you local center provides a quality product for your entertainment dollar, throw us a bone!!!
-Buy your ball here!
-Show up early for league and EAT OUR FOOD.
-TIP your waitress for hustle. (good one's are so hard to find. Appreciate them.)
-If you see kids or open bowlers tearing up my building or equipment, PLEASE SAY SOMETHING!! Vandalism costs us $s every year.
-Bring family from out-of-town in for fun and laughs. We love to meet them and we'll clean up the mess! Most of us are open major holidays.

We know money is tight, we're doing our best to keep costs down. Please help!

PinCup

I totally agree with everything you said about running a bowling alley! However, the question was about buying bowling equipment online and if it kills pro shops. I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

bowl

ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY YES!!!
Most pro-shops will charge you double for a ball not purchased from him.
If he's your in-house guy, it's a real smack in the face. If he's a certified shop, that's even worse. Training required to stay current ain't cheap.

I totally agree with everything you said about running a bowling alley! However, the question was about buying bowling equipment online and if it kills pro shops. I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

I think he did reply to the question in the first paragraph. But yeah all the rest was just about the bowling alley.

I would think also unless the alley ran the proshop themselves. They wouldn't care where you bought a ball. Because you'd have to come there to use it and spend the money you think you saved paying for games, food etc.

Now the alley could lose rent/lease money if the shop closed up.

DanielMareina

Online shops selling balls hurts business, but doesn't kill it. Now with minimum retail pricing, I as a pro shop, can match almost any price people find online. The problem I find, is bowlers buying a ball that is not right for them, because there isn't a pro shop guy to talk them out of it. They see it online, watch videos, read reviews, but don't understand the ball itself. Some bowlers buy the right stuff, but multiple times I have had a bowler tell me they saw (just an example) a Taboo and a Taboo Pro for the same price. They buy the Pro, not knowing that it means Pro Pin. A pro shop won't do that to people, but the online stores don't have to look the person in the face. I think they hurt bowling as a sport, more than they hurt pro shop business.

The Mayor

A pro shop won't do that to people, but the online stores don't have to look the person in the face. I think they hurt bowling as a sport, more than they hurt pro shop business.

Trust me, there are more bad pro shops that there are good ones. You don't think there are pro shops that still have old stock that push those balls on customers who trust them with blind faith because they are a "pro"? Daniel, I can tell you're a good pro shop operator who cares about putting his customers in the correct bowling ball. I wish there were more people like you. People that buy on line don't have to be pressured in to buying something they don't need just so the owner can clear out the stock of a bad pro shop. If I lived next to you Daniel, I wouldn't need to buy online. When someone brings in a ball to be drilled from the internet, the pro shop is making pure profit. No inventory costs, no space taken up in their shop, just straight cash. 95% of the time you'll also get the sale of the grips and slug, ball cleaner, tape, towels. And if you do a great job and take the time to help the customer, watch them bowl, find the best layout for them, you'll make them forget about the internet. The next sale will be yours. A lot of times the internet will bring people to pro shops that never would've been there because they see a good deal.

If you've got a good pro shop in your area PLEASE support them and buy from them. If you don't, the internet is a perfectly fine option.

DanielMareina

I do agree that there are a lot of bad pro shops out there. I do get stuck in my world of trying to be a good example, and space the fact that it is all make believe. I have talked to a lot of people that have one option for a pro shop in their area, and that person is bad at their job, doesn't care, or sells whatever they want you to buy. I think bowlers have access to so much information now a days, that pro shops like that are losing business because of their attitude. I spent over an hour yesterday selling a Roto Grip Defiant to a guy, who already wanted it. I spent that long trying to figure out why he wanted it, what else he had, and what he wanted it to do. Then I drilled it. I made $55 above cost on that ball, selling it for far less than the retail price. If I could sell a ball an hour like that, I would be rich. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Because I run the pro shop and bowling center, my real profit is coming from that customer bowling at my center because of how he is treated from entering my building. If the pro shop driller isn't cutting the mustard somewhere, tell the manager. There are plenty of young guys like me that would love their job, and aren't jaded after years of being bad at their job.
To get back to the point, I can still make a decent profit off a ball, no matter whether they buy it from me or not. I am not against the online retailers now that the minimum prices are here. I charge a league bowler $40 to drill an online ball, which compared to many places, is very cheap. Someone off the street may cost $50 because I need to watch them bowl and talk to them for longer to get them the right layout. Either way, who wouldn't like to make $40 or $50 an hour, and if you do a good job, you can get a lot of business from your competitors. I have people drive over 45 minutes to get to me, (not to mention past 4 other bowling centers with pro shops) and they tell me it is because they heard I was the place to go to be treated right and charged a decent price. That is how we are going to succeed as pro shops, and as an industry.

resstealth

I think it does hurt some shops. For example, the shop at the local house will sell the ball at cost, and give you a discount on the drilling, so they do alot of business. Go over to the next town, and you're paying at least 25% markup on what you can find the ball online for, plus they charge a butt load for drilling. I think it all comes down to the shop itself and how they treat their customers. Our guy treats the customer well, and his knowledge is worth its weight in gold.

PinCup

No matter if the pro-shop is leased or owner operated. Part of a pro-shop's lease (in most centers) is the repair of ANY damaged ball (including house balls).

Let's face facts, your ball will get marked up. The only way to keep it new is to keep it home. We do our absolute best to keep 'sharps' out of the machine, but with the amount of vibration these machine endure, it' surprising they stay together at all. Having an in-house Pro-shop saves us money in repairs.

Pro-shops leased also have an agreement to act as ambassador for the center, and to help with learn-to-bowl and coaching. Yes, some shops are better than others. If you are unhappy with who runs your in-house pro-shop, SPEAK UP!!! His lease may not be renewed.

Customers make our paychecks possible, we want you to be satisfied after each visit.

As a Mechanic, I have a call sheet at the desk where desk workers are supposed to write down every call. You as the league bowler have a duty to make sure any problems you experience during you shift gets written down on that sheet. I don't want to hear "Is 5 still dropping pins" if you didn't bother to tell anyone last week.
If it isn't on the call sheet, it didn't happen.

If I didn't know the guy in the Pro-shop sucks, I won't replace him.

Good luck and Good bowling,
PinCup

bowl

Now just a thought about online purchasing. I think who it hurts more are the distributors, if your not buying from the proshop. Then the proshop is not buying from the distributor.

I also have thought on a off shoot of the original question. How much business have proshops lost, do to all the bowlers who are buying spinners and doing theirs and friends equipment? You have the loss of resurfacing jobs, coverstock changes, polishing jobs. Those little jobs add up.

PinCup

For me, it all related to the economics of the bowling business. If the Pro-shop guy isn't making enough, he'll pull out. Then who knows what kind of skills (drilling and people) the next guy will have.

Your shoot off question,... Not too much loss due to guys that shop their own equipment. All the tools of the trade can be purchase new and used. Our forum has a classified section, and a pro-shop section where all the latest tech is discussed. It's a small slice of our customer base that has the desire and the funds the do the work themselves.

PinCup

Leadbelly

Now just a thought about online purchasing. I think who it hurts more are the distributors, if your not buying from the proshop. Then the proshop is not buying from the distributor.

Online retailers purchase through distributors as well, so they make money no matter who you buy from.

Back to the original question, it's survival of the fittest.. the good pro shops will survive, the weak will die. That's the way everything in life works. If I ran a pro shop I would have a web site and I'd advertise online telling people to bring in their undrilled balls... then I'd work to make them my customer next time. I used to bowl at a house where the pro shop guy never had any training as far as drilling is concerned. He Would use a tape measure to mark the span and would put three holes somewhere close to the lines he drew. He also told everyone that came in there that the tornado was the highest performance ball at the time. So almost everyone had a Tornado. Needless to say, he's retired now... but he lasted 2YEARS!!

billf

My local pro shop charges $50 for drilling BUT it is included in the price of a ball purchased there. The pro shop I use, 40 miles away, has a sign that says $50 for drilling but when compared to what the same ball is on-line, he doesn't when purchased there. I'm not sure but I think he cuts me a deal. I called in February, ordered a Critical Theory (for my teammate/doubles partner), Misfit, Reckless, Revenge pin up and Revenge pin down. I offered to pay up front, knowing how bad the economy is but was told no as the Revenge had not been released yet (therefore price unknown). I was totally satisfied to spend under $900 for 5 balls properly fitted, grips and interchangeable thumbs. The service and advice I get from Matt at The Bowlers Store in Huber Heights, OH can not be matched by any on-line company.

Buying Direct from the USA | Page 7

kmtproshop said:
It seems to me that PSO's are trying to take out their frustrations on everyone but themselves. Perhaps we should look closer to home?

When the buying public believes they're not getting their money's worth, they start looking around for better deals...

The point to this story is this: There is no such thing as an "automatic" hooking ball...
Click to expand...

Hi Steve,

In the interests of space, I've truncated your post and hopefully not taken it out of context. Please correct me if you think I have.

The coaching/instruction angle a good point. A little tangential, but worth including. As John Jowdy says, "Practice doesn't make perfect, only permanent. Good practice makes perfect." By which he means seeking out a knowledgeable (maybe even qualified) instructor and applying what they say in the way that works for you. Like I say to my customers; "Can you meet me half way and touch the holes on the realease?" Followed by an on the carpet coaching session. A good pro shop with coaching services can do wonders with your physical & mental game as well as the sphere in your hand. This is yet anther reason why the knowledgeable pro shop is worth supporting. On-line ball shops can't do this. And every customer leaves my shop with more than just holes in a ball. Passing on knowledge is the key to keeping people in the sport, which is good business.

Ball drilling at a very basic level, isn't that difficult. But like most things, it gets advanced and that's when it gets trickier. Ask Mo Pinel. It's much like I feel confident to rotate my tyres, but I'm not about to change my tie rod bushings. I know enough to know what I don't know. That's when I call in a specialist who knows his stuff. Getting a bowling ball to really fit, to fit like a pro would have it, takes time, expertise, some customer education and sometimes even an iteration or two. When a somebody buys a good ball, then gets a shoddy drill job done on it, they are usually none the wiser (as evidenced by many comments on this forum), but I find myself saddened on their behalf. They've been ripped off and they don't even know it. Bad fit = bad value.

Some people want the job done right. Some don't care. (It's their hand they're gambling with and I still see guys bleeding who insist that their gear fits just great, thanks.) But please don't devalue the efforts of the quality pro shop operator by putting them in the same bucket as a 10 minute per ball drill hack. It's disrespectful to these people (including myself) who really know their trade and have spent years honing their knowledge and skills. A close analogy would be that it's like saying a University Degree is only a piece of paper.

Almost all of my early customers were people who were dissatisfied with their previous fit. That speaks volumes in itself. I've cleared up people's pain, callouses, ~½" underspans, ~½" overspans, undersized grips, grossly large thumb holes (that no doubt got them out of the last pro shop quicker) and even avoided hand surgery for one lady. There's a lot of badly fitting balls and overworked arms & digits out there. It makes me wonder how many people the sport has lost over the years as a result. I've seen some dreadful "fits" and appalling work finish out there. Stuff you'd never put your name to. And I've seen the light come on in people's eyes when they first try their new grip all fitted. It's a really good feeling to have made somebody so happy with something a great fit, especially when they've been suffering up until now.

In a previous post, a comparison was made to the electrical goods market. To compare a pro shop to an electrical store is tangential at best. It's like saying that a good pro shop technician has the same skill level of the kid who takes your credit card and hands you the box at Harvey Norman. There's a lot more to it than that once you get past "by the numbers" drilling.

This whole misguided debate seems to be a prime example of "You don't know what you don't know until you now know that you didn't know it." People who have never experienced a really good fit, the kind that takes an experienced operator the best part of an hour from start to finish, simply may have no idea of what I am talking about.

And today's balls BTW, by way of covers that have enough friction to damage lanes over time and cores that flare to flip people's inadequately rotated release track off the thumb hole do provide a substantial amount of automatic hook. They require only the most modest of user input to prime the pump. A pancake ball with the same release won't get off the thumb for them and will move substantially less. Nobody throws the ball dead straight. It's almost impossible to do without sliding it the entire length of the lane.

Like all good people in our society, I do my best to do the right thing by people. And doing the right thing takes time, dedication, development, equipment, education, knowledge, manual skills, an understanding of physical principles, excellent communication skills, an attitude of care and responsibility and a commitment to excellence. That all adds up. Just like a Mercedes isn't a Daewoo, a quality job isn't just three holes in a ball.

When people ignore the aspect of quality work, in order to save a few bucks, then imply that anyone who doesn't do what they do is getting ripped off, they cheapen themselves and in turn, our entire sport. They clearly demonstrate that they feel no reciprocity on their behalf is required to society as a whole. Psychologists have a term for them. They call them "cheaters". It's a type of pathology common in psychopathic behaviour. And our society is showing more and more of it. It's disgusting when they give this primate behaviour the euphemism "human nature", it's just misleading. Humans are capable of much more complex conceptual thinking than "cheap price" and many do and a lot of my customer base is made up of such enlightened individuals. It's just that some aren't capable, some are too lazy or far worse, don't care about the consequences to others. Dog does not eat Dog. Cannibalism is a primate behaviour.

We can go about making the world a better place. Or we can go about trying to (ch)eat each other. I'll choose to be, and try to be the former man. Sometimes it's harder, but it's worth it to be true to myself.

My quality of work is a reflection of my values.
My values are an integral part of me.
My integrity is not on special and never below cost.

Others can choose their own path.

Hi Steve,In the interests of space, I've truncated your post and hopefully not taken it out of context. Please correct me if you think I have.The coaching/instruction angle a good point. A little tangential, but worth including. As John Jowdy says, "Practice doesn't make perfect, only permanent. Good practice makes perfect." By which he means seeking out a knowledgeable (maybe even qualified) instructor and applying what they say in the way that works for you. Like I say to my customers; "Can you meet me half way and touch the holes on the realease?" Followed by an on the carpet coaching session. A good pro shop with coaching services can do wonders with your physical & mental game as well as the sphere in your hand. This is yet anther reason why the knowledgeable pro shop is worth supporting. On-line ball shops can't do this. And every customer leaves my shop with more than just holes in a ball. Passing on knowledge is the key to keeping people in the sport, which is good business.Ball drilling, isn't that difficult. But like most things, it gets advanced and that's when it gets trickier. Ask Mo Pinel. It's much like I feel confident to rotate my tyres, but I'm not about to change my tie rod bushings. I know enough to know what I don't know. That's when I call in a specialist who knows his stuff. Getting a bowling ball to really fit, to fit like a pro would have it, takes time, expertise, some customer education and sometimes even an iteration or two. When a somebody buys a good ball, then gets a shoddy drill job done on it, they are usually none the wiser (as evidenced by many comments on this forum), but I find myself saddened on their behalf.Bad fit = bad value.Some people want the job done right. Some don't care. (It's their hand they're gambling with and I still see guys bleeding who insist that their gear fits just great, thanks.) But please don't devalue the efforts of the quality pro shop operator by putting them in the same bucket as a 10 minute per ball drill hack. It's disrespectful to these people (including myself) who really know their trade and have spent years honing their knowledge and skills. A close analogy would be that it's like saying a University Degree is only a piece of paper.Almost all of my early customers were people who were dissatisfied with their previous fit. That speaks volumes in itself. I've cleared up people's pain, callouses, ~½" underspans, ~½" overspans, undersized grips, grossly large thumb holes (that no doubt got them out of the last pro shop quicker) and even avoided hand surgery for one lady. There's a lot of badly fitting balls and overworked arms & digits out there. It makes me wonder how many people the sport has lost over the years as a result. I've seen some dreadful "fits" and appalling work finish out there. Stuff you'd never put your name to. And I've seen the light come on in people's eyes when they first try their new grip all fitted. It's a really good feeling to have made somebody so happy with something a great fit, especially when they've been suffering up until now.In a previous post, a comparison was made to the electrical goods market. To compare a pro shop to an electrical store is tangential at best. It's like saying that a good pro shop technician has the same skill level of the kid who takes your credit card and hands you the box at Harvey Norman. There's a lot more to it than that once you get past "by the numbers" drilling.This whole misguided debate seems to be a prime example of "You don't know what you don't know until you now know that you didn't know it." People who have never experienced agood fit, the kind that takes an experienced operator the best part of an hour from start to finish, simply may have no idea of what I am talking about.And today's balls BTW, by way of covers that have enough friction to damage lanes over time and cores that flare to flip people's inadequately rotated release track off the thumb hole do provide a substantial amount of automatic hook. They require only the most modest of user input to prime the pump. A pancake ball with the same release won't get off the thumb for them and will move substantially less. Nobody throws the ball dead straight. It's almost impossible to do without sliding it the entire length of the lane.Like all good people in our society, I do my best to do the right thing by people. And doing the right thing takes time, dedication, development, equipment, education, knowledge, manual skills, an understanding of physical principles, excellent communication skills, an attitude of care and responsibility and a commitment to excellence. That all adds up. Just like a Mercedes isn't a Daewoo, a quality job isn't just three holes in a ball.When people ignore the aspect of quality work, in order to save a few bucks, then imply that anyone who doesn't do what they do is getting ripped off, they cheapen themselves and in turn, our entire sport. They clearly demonstrate that they feel no reciprocity on their behalf is required to society as a whole. Psychologists have a term for them. They call them "cheaters". It's a type of pathology common in psychopathic behaviour. And our society is showing more and more of it. It's disgusting when they give this primate behaviour the euphemism "human nature", it's just misleading. Humans are capable of much more complex conceptual thinking than "cheap price" and many do and a lot of my customer base is made up of such enlightened individuals. It's just that some aren't capable, some are too lazy or far worse, don't care about the consequences to others. Dog does not eat Dog. Cannibalism is a primate behaviour.We can go about making the world a better place. Or we can go about trying to (ch)eat each other. I'll choose to be, and try to be the former man. Sometimes it's harder, but it's worth it to be true to myself.My quality of work is a reflection of my values.My values are an integral part of me.My integrity is not on special and never below cost.Others can choose their own path.

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